Back

Episode 13

Episode 11: Kelli Anderson

We’re excited to have Kelli Anderson as our guest for episode 11 of Overtime. Kelli is a tinkerer, designer, artist, printmaker, and all-around creative force in the design world. Kelli also makes the impossible possible—like a record player made out of paper. Or perhaps a book that’s also a camera. In this episode, Dan and Kelli chat about the inspiration behind her unique design projects, how science plays a role in her work, her upcoming book, This Book Is a Planetarium: And Other Extraordinary Pop-Up Contraptions, and more.

This episode of Overtime is brought to you by SiteGround. SiteGround offers web hosting crafted for the creative community. Whether you’re using a custom solution or a popular open-source software like WordPress, SiteGround has plenty of hosting options that your website can grow into. Overtime listeners get 50% off at siteground.com/dribbble.

kellianderson kellianderson
  1. Paper Record Player
  2. Shot Link
  3. Shot Link

Subscribe on iTunes or Download the episode via Simplecast

Transcript

Dan: Hey, everyone. Welcome to Overtime. This is Dribbble’s official podcast where we go behind the shots of your favorite designers. I’m Dan Cederholm, your host. And today’s Episode 11, with Kelli Anderson. Kelli is a tinkerer, and a designer, and an artist, and an illustrator, and a printmaker, and a whole bunch of other things. She’s quite a talented force in the design world, and it was a pleasure to talk to her about some of her cool projects, like a paper record player – no joke, and a book that’s also a camera, among other things. It was a really fun chat with her. It was great to hear from her in person. I think you’re going to enjoy it. And if you do enjoy it, be sure to rate and/or review us on iTunes. That would help us out a lot. Today’s episode is brought to you by SiteGround. SiteGround offers web hosting crafted specifically for the creative community. What’s cool is they believe in keeping the web open and independent, and give you more freedom to get craft with your design, own your website content, and move freely between platforms, which is all really good stuff.

Whether you’re using a custom solution or a popular opensource software like WordPress, SiteGround has plenty of hosting options that your website can grow into. Get this; Dribbble members get 50% off at siteground.com/Dribbble. Big thank you to SiteGround for sponsoring this episode. Now onto our chat with Kelli Anderson. Welcome to Overtime, Kelli Anderson.

Kelli: Hey, thanks for having me, Dan.

Dan: It’s a pleasure to have you on. I know you’re super busy and working on a thousand different things probably. We appreciate your time.

Kelli: Being busy is overrated.

Dan: That’s true, but I can tell you’re having fun too, I think, based on all the projects we’re seeing and all your work.

Kelli: It’s funny, I kind of have no choice. I’m not one of those people who – I think I have a really good work ethic when I’m curious, but if I’m not curious, and I’m not trying to figure something out or determined to make something work, then it’s really hard to motivate myself. I pretty much have to be having fun in order to get anything done at all.

Dan: I think that’s a wonderful goal for everybody. I think it shows in your work. I think the first project I became aware of, of yours, was quite a while ago. It was back in 2011, but it’s this paper record player. This was an invitation, I believe, to a friend’s wedding that you designed. Part of it was a record, an actual record pressed, a floppy record. I remember these from when I was a kid. They’d be in the back of a magazine or something. You could pull it out and put it on the record player. But also, you could play the record with a needle. You created an area for the sound to come out. I was blown away. This was insane. Not only was the design beautiful and everything, but it’s also this really unique thing. I think the song on the record was a song played by the groom, right?

Kelli: Yeah. This was a wedding invitation for my friends Mike and Karen. Mike is a sound engineer and musician, and Karen is sort of an activist lawyer type. She does a lot of work for software freedom and opensource software. She’s pretty awesome.

They decided that they wanted me to make their wedding invitation. It made sense the theme would be music. I met Karen at a concert. It was pretty clear that music should be the theme here. But they kind of came in and were like we have these ideas like we could create sheet music and people could play it, and then it would be interactive.

I went home and thought about it. I remember watching Mr. Wizard when I was a kid, and him doing these experiments with cones of paper and needles, and basically making technology out of nothing at all. Next time I met up with Karen and Mike, I was like “Did you guys see this? Does anyone else have this memory?” They were like “Oh, yeah. That would be super-duper cool. All of our friends would really like that. Let’s try to make a paper record player wedding invitation.”

I think what was so fun was it’s this thing that works like an appliance would work yet it’s made out of nothing. It’s a folded sheet of paper with a little needle taped to the end. It was as low-fi as it could get, but just that sense of doing something from nothing was really super exciting, and sort of set the stage for what I’m interested in pursuing with my career.

Dan: That’s amazing. First of all, the Mr. Wizard reference was amazing. He was cool. I loved that show.

Kelli: Did you see that video of him being a dick?

Dan: I actually did. Yes, I don’t think I noticed this when I watched it as a kid.

Kelli: Me neither. I was like Mr. Wizard is a nice guy; how did they make him so mean. But I guess when you’re really committed to the facts of physical reality and then you have these kids who know nothing, I guess the tendency is to just be a dick to them.

Dan: He probably didn’t want to do the kid show. He probably wanted it to be an adult show and they were like no, we have to do kids. And he’s like oh, kids – screw it.

Kelli: Kids require a lot of patience. Let’s be honest.

Dan: They really do. He was exceptionally impatient with them. It’s pretty funny. That’s hilarious. We’ll have to link that in the show notes.

Kelli: Please do.

Dan: It’s definitely worth seeing.

Kelli: It’s way important that everyone watch that video.

Dan: I just wanted to make a point to note the first Mr. Wizard reference of the Overtime. The whole thing is crazy in a good way. The idea is amazing, and then I also remember watching a video of you or somebody playing it. You spin it with your finger, and have the sewing needle drop on it, and it actually works. It’s like this reminder about how mechanical recording was, and still is now that vinyl is making a comeback.

Kelli: I have to say yes, that was me, and yes, I was the only person who could play it that well.

Dan: It’s a talent. You’re a musician.

Kelli: Exactly. It’s funny because you end up doing these things with your body, like you’re dancing to try to keep time. You need to turn it at exactly 45 RPM, which is no small feat. It’s really kind of hard. When your arm goes back in the rotation it naturally wants to slump, so it kind of makes this warbley sound. Overcoming that is like overcoming your nature and how you move as a human or something.

Dan: I’m imagining trying. Because it’s in a circle, it’s not a natural repetitive motion you would do.

Kelli: There’s nothing on the human body that wants to move in a perfect circle. I’m trying to develop a consumer mass-producible version of the record player so everyone can play a record by hand. Overcoming that hand-turning thing is actually the main challenge with that project. It’s really fun to be able to turn music with your hand and make that physical connection of feeling the grooves, and the vibration, and having it turn into sound. You really get what you were told in science class about sound being vibration that travels through the air. In that sense, it’s really fun, but if it sounds like shit, no one is going to want to play with it. It’s kind of like one of these things where it’s like this process of optimization. How can I make it so that people have this wide range to fail but then also gradually get better at it? It’s more fun than something that automatically works pushing a button. Normal playback of a song should be achievable. I’ve basically been wrestling with that for the last year, which is why I’ve been quiet on Dribbble.

Dan: I can’t wait until you crack this.

Kelli: Me neither.

Dan: Even if you can’t play it as well as a turntable would, I imagine it’s still really fun. Then my immediate reaction would be I’m going to scratch on this. That would be easy to do.

Kelli: Yeah, it’s definitely easy to make it sound bad, but I feel like it’s not something that’s going to be a sticky experience. You’re not going to want to spend a lot of time with it if it seems impossible to make it sound decent. You want to be able to understand the lyrics. You want to be able to recognize the melody. It’s fun. It’s another way of playing back a record or song you really like, so it should sound like there’s some similarity between what you’re hearing and what the actual song is.

Dan: Absolutely. In the video, you can hear the song. It’s really well done. I think it’s an amazing idea. Was this the first turning paper into something better than paper project for you, or had you always been doing stuff before that?

Kelli: When I was a little kid I was an origami nerd, which I think a lot of people who become graphic designers were. I worked with paper before, but this was the first time I tried to make it into a functional thing. It was like one of those projects where I felt like oh, this is a cool idea; I want to pursue it. Then we made it, and I was like I’m really into this. This is really super cool. But I didn’t really understand why. I just understood it was pleasing to my brain in some dumb way. After I made it, and we released it into the world, and I made a video documenting it, people freaked out in a way that I was not prepared for at all. The response was kind of amazing. I got invited to give a TED talk. All this crazy stuff happened where I was like alright; I guess I’m the person who made this now.

There were a lot of offers that rolled in from companies that wanted to offer record player wedding invitations as a product, that they would mass produce. I was like this doesn’t seem like the best use of this idea. I agree it seems like this cool novelty, but I don’t completely understand on a philosophical level yet. I kind of sat on it for a few years until I felt I was really prepared to continue exploring the idea in a direction that did it justice – if that makes sense.

Dan: Yeah, it does. It wouldn’t be a novelty anymore if someone is mass producing them for folks. I think the meaning behind why you built it is really compelling. They’re musicians. You met them – I wonder the thought process though. You knew you wanted to do something musically related. I guess we talked about Mr. Wizard but where did the inspiration come from to say I’m going to do this; I can put a needle in the paper and it will work?

Kelli: I think maybe it just comes from my own rebellious “I’m still a teenager at heart” impulse of all right, so wedding invitations are this, and they’re expected to do this. Can we do something better with it? What else can this thing do?

I want to say I love my friends so much I wanted them to have the coolest wedding invitation in the world, which I think is in part true, but I think I’m inherently just always trying to figure out what else I can do with something. If there’s an opportunity to kind of hack it and make it more interactive, or push it into some domain where people are forced to engage with the media in a totally different way. You’re not used to playing a wedding invitation or receiving a holiday card that’s an animation. Bringing a wider range of experiences into media is just something I’ve always found personally exciting. It’s really not honestly an attention-seeking thing. I don’t want to feel special. It’s just that’s what I find exciting. The fact that they were game to let me experiment with their once-in-a-lifetime special day and create this science project to send to all their friends was super awesome.

Dan: I was going to say there’s not much pressure because it’s not a client thing. Then I thought wait a minute; this is someone’s wedding invitation. I guess there is a lot of pressure there. I think that’s great. That’s something we should all be doing. I understand it’s not trying to gain attention. It sounds to me it’s more like the fun in solving this puzzle in a different way.

Kelli: Yeah, but then once I did it and I was like oh, this is cool, there’s something here, then I started to really think about it. I went to grad school for art history, so I have the capability to go down insane rabbit holes on anything. You could give me a wooden stick and I could write a 15-page paper on that wooden stick. I started thinking what is there to this, and I came up with the reason the record player thing is cool is because A) none of us understand how technology works anymore. It’s like pure magic stuck in these black boxes, and we can’t see inside of it. B) When we do strip down technology to what’s necessary and sufficient, and make it super-duper minimal, then you can actually get closer in touch with these underlying forces that make the world work, these physics forces. The principle that engineers use when they’re building things.

I think most of the time when people talk about this they talk about low-fi magic, but it’s not even really magic. It’s more of an infrastructure. If you know the world is capable of supplying that infrastructure, I feel like you can be a better designer. You can think about ways to tap into it and really build things that work off of how sound inherently works, or build things that work off of how light works.

That’s really exciting to me because I feel like it gives you and also the user a glimpse into how cool the world is. That’s something that travels beyond the experience. Once you know about sound being vibration, you’ll think about that next time you’re at a concert and you feel the floor wiggling. It’s just like super cool. I feel like doing that project and then sitting down, nerding out, and thinking about why it was cool enriched my life. I feel like it’s kind of my duty to keep making projects like this, especially as technology becomes more and more complex and harder to follow.

Dan: Absolutely. Especially for kids growing – I remember using a record player. It’s a reminder of that, but for people that haven’t really experienced that, and then they would see how this works mechanically, that’s going to be mind-blowing.

Kelli: Did you have a Fisher Price one that was yellow, brown, and orange? Or was that just me?

Dan: I remember that, like “My First Record Player” or something? I used to have this Ernie and Bert record where Ernie is taking a shower and Bert wheels in the piano because the acoustics were good. I remember using it to scratch – that’s a weird tangent.

Kelli: I’m happy you were a DJ. at a young age.

Dan: I tried to be. I was into breakdancing and I had this Ernie and Bert record lying around.

Kelli: That’s so cool. I think I heard about the conspiracy theories surrounding the Beatles records. If you played things backwards it was like “I buried Paul,” and this conspiracy theory that Paul was actually dead. Once I found that out, I started destroying every record in sight.

Dan: Yeah, playing them all backwards to see what they say, absolutely. You can’t do that with – I guess you could with digital but it’s not the same. It’s like those Easter eggs are so cool. You were saying this particular project was inspirational for some others that you did. That was the next thing I was going to ask. This is amazing too. It’s a book that’s a camera. The name of the book is This Book is a Camera. It literally is a paper camera that pops out of the book.

Kelli: I’m the queen of really accurate titles.

Dan: I love the title. It’s perfect. I wonder if you’d tell us about this one. This is insane too. I use insane in a good way in this case. It literally is a camera that comes out. You show samples of what the pictures look like when they come out. They’re awesome because again there’s this low-fi aesthetic to it. Tell us about this one. This is mind-blowing too.

Kelli: All you need to make a camera is a light-proof box with a hole in it. Then you need something light sensitive to capture the image. In theory, you could black out all of the windows in your house. You could make a little hole in the blackout material and it would project a photo on the back wall. That’s called a camera obscura. That’s the most pared down, minimalist type of camera.

This Book is a Camera is basically just an elaborately folded piece of paper with a hole in it. But it works as a camera. You open the book and it’s a pop-up book, and a camera pops out. You can take photos with it using either film or photo paper. It comes with photo paper. And then you can develop it in your bathroom using stuff that you can find in your kitchen, so instant coffee and baking soda in this instance.

Dan: Instant coffee and baking soda?

Kelli: It’s actually washing soda that you should use, but it’s really hard to find washing soda. You can bake baking soda in the oven for an hour and it turns into washing soda. It needs an extra carbon which you get from burning things, so you burn baking soda and you have washing soda. It’s pretty cool.

Dan: Can I play the part of Mr. Wizard now and yell at you passive aggressively?

Kelli: Please, be a dick. Go ahead.

Dan: I think you were saying it’s just a box with a hole in it, but I guess for me I was blown away. I remember working with photo paper as a kid too. I just think the concept of this thing pops out of a book and you can actually use it to take pictures is brilliant, totally brilliant. People that have used this, have they shared the photos they’ve taken with the book?

Kelli: Yeah. The best is when a professional photographer gets their hands on one. With analog photography, you have to meter which means to take a reading of the light in the situation and figure out how long your exposure time needs to be. The best people at using the book are honestly people who have experience with analog photography.

But anyone can use it. It is super cool and gratifying, A) to see when people take photos and post them online, but B) to explain to people that this is possible. I made it while I was a creative resident at Adobe, and for some insane reason, they offered me booth space at Adobe MAX, which is this big tech conference where people are showing off their super awesome 3-D printers.

It’s all these legit technology companies displaying things, and then there’s me with my paper cameras. It was actually fun. Along with the creative residency program, we set up this paper camera booth and took a bunch of peoples’ photos. People were so convinced that it was a trick that there was a digital camera hiding inside the paper box. I was like no, light is actually magic. This is how it works. Spent seven hours a day explaining to people how things could be in focus without using a lens. Talking about how projectors work, and how you basically calibrate the placement of where that projection screen is. That’s what makes something in focus. It’s really super fun to be evangelical about the physical world, and how magical the physical world is through these things.

Dan: It is. I think because it’s so well designed – your talent as a visual designer applied to this stuff makes a big difference. That’s why people are hearing about it. It’s crazy. This idea of interactive paper –

Kelli: I guess it’s paper folded into functional things. I’m not sure what to say rather than saying this book is a camera. People are like a book isn’t a camera, but yes, it can be a camera.

Dan: I love it. Going further into your portfolio, paper is used in a lot of different ways. There’s a paper EQ that I’m curious about. The EQ meters are going up and down, and I assume it’s paper controlling that.

Kelli: That was for this really cool project I did for NPR. They had done this story about women’s voices and the unfair way people judge women’s voices. There’s all these new studies being done by biologists that show people prioritize lower-pitched voices. There’s a lot of hostility that NPR correspondents have had to endure over the decades they’ve had female reporters.

They did this story about those biological findings, but also went and talked to these NPR reporters who have basically been getting hate mail for years and years about the crazy things people have said to them about their voices. They put together that story and approached me to make a paper stop-motion animation showing what was going on. The paper EQ thing was for that NPR. It’s called “Talking While Female,” and it’s really super good because I realized my own biases I had listening to it. I actually had been judging people for years for having “Valley Girl” voices and stuff like that. We all really can’t help what our voice sounds like. We need to stop judging people for it.

Dan: That’s true. It is what it is. That’s fascinating. Paper EQ. The other thing I wanted to talk about is a more recent shot of yours, the “Human Body, now featuring: Skin”. I think this is a project you were working on for Tinybop, right?

Kelli: Yeah. Tinybop are old friends. My friend Youngna and my friend Raul started this company called Tinybop. They make educational apps for kids that are not games. There’s no stated goals within these apps. The reward within the apps is just like curiosity. It allows you to tunnel deeper and deeper into things. You open up the human body and it’s this anatomy app, and you can see the heart, and you can click on the heart and go further and further into it and interact with it in a variety of ways. It doesn’t tell you what to do. There’s no right way or wrong way to use it.

I really appreciate that philosophy. I feel like so many kids’ games are training kids to go after gold stars, and they expect a reward for doing it. This app is like no, your reward is knowledge and we’ll reward your curiosity by hiding things. There’s Easter eggs all over the human body, and kids find them. I did all the illustrations for that app when they originally released it in 2014. We had it sort of structured like a traditional 1950s biology textbook, with the acetate pages.

Dan: I totally remember that. I had the World Book Encyclopedia that had those.

Kelli: And it’s sort of a digital version of that, every different system, like the respiratory system, the circulatory system is all on a different layer that you can turn on and off and isolate it.

Dan: So cool.

Kelli: It’s pretty cool. We didn’t put in the skin. I think part of that is they really have this dedication to being inclusive and from a programming standpoint, it was really difficult to figure out how we could include every different skin tone on earth and also include it at all these different zoom levels. The app wasn’t even coded in Swift. It was whatever the predecessor was. It was definitely a technical challenge there to figure out how to incorporate skin, even though it’s like the biggest organ in the body – into this app. We recently conquered that and pushed an update to the app. Now kids can make the body look more like them, which is really cool, but also learn all about how skin works. Which is cool for me too because I don’t really know this stuff. It’s an education for me and all the five-year-olds that use this app.

Dan: You say it’s a kids’ app but it’s really for anybody. Just looking through this I’m learning things, just looking at your illustrations. It’s awesome.

Kelli: We consulted not on heart surgeon, but we consulted multiple heart surgeons. Getting approval of just one wasn’t enough. It’s hard because you see diagrams of the heart but you don’t see it in three dimensions. One of the things the surgeons were telling us is we have these anatomical representations of the human body, but no one’s body looks like this. You look around at different peoples’ body shapes and stuff, and it’s like the inside of your body is like that too. The heart doesn’t have this definite shape. It has a typical shape, but there’s a lot of variation. We were kind of driving ourselves crazy being as accurate as possible, but I think we did a pretty good job. It’s crazy. I hadn’t really thought about that. I just assumed everyone’s heart was the exact same shape.

Dan: Or like a Valentine heart.

Kelli: Yeah. I’m squeamish, so that would be a lot better for me.

Dan: It would be. I’m kind of squeamish too, so looking at some of this stuff is fascinating. What’s cool is you’ve got this aesthetic going in the app. There’s also paper components, stop-motion paper things that you did for them too. Did this start digitally or in paper? I’m curious about the process on that.

Kelli: It started digitally. I drew everything in Illustrator that they needed for the app. The process was basically I’m too squeamish; I’m not going to do all the research about open-heart surgeries. You send me the photos. They did the research and found the Platonic ideal of the heart, sent it to me. I stared at this one and I illustrated it in Illustrator.

At the end of the project, I had I think 270 different drawings of body parts. I thought well, I already have these vector shapes, and I have this Graphtec cutting machine called a Craft ROBO. I was like why don’t I cut all these pieces out and make this gift for my friend and give them this paper body. This will be a nice gift so they can have this as a monument to their first project. It really was such a big effort on everyone’s part.

I made this paper corpse. I was like this is actually really cool. I should animate this. I tried my hand at stop motion and it was just like magic. It was so much fun. I did that for them as a gift. But them they hired me all legit the next time they made an app. They were like “That paper stop-motion thing worked pretty well. Let’s do this for all our advertisements for our apps.”

Dan: That’s a great tip. Do something cool that you know is going to be cool and it could lead to more work.

Kelli: I think that’s the only way the world works. We’re the creative people. You can’t expect someone else to be able to dream up what your capabilities might be. You have to do what you know is going to be exciting and engaging and then get somehow get someone to pay for it. You know if you put it out there – “If you build it, they will come.” It’s true.

Dan: Absolutely. I’m looking at the stop motion now which we’ll also link. It is amazing. The heart’s beating, and the blood is pumping through the paper veins. So cool. How did this all begin for you in terms of design? I’m curious because you’re combining visual design and information design and science too. I wonder if those things have always been interesting to you, or it sort of grew out of something else.

Kelli: I was definitely a science nerd as a kid. I was always doing drawings, but when people asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I always had some – “I want to be a biologist,” or “I want to be a zoologist,” or whatever I had learned about. I feel like as a kid you don’t have much control over your fate. I think that observing cause and effect in the world, and learning the principles of why things happen gave me some modicum of control that was somehow comforting.

Science, I guess the philosophical dimensions of science and its appeal has always been really apparent to me. When I was in high school, I had a fantastic physics teacher. It almost swayed me to not go to art school. I was like maybe I should study physics, even though my brain isn’t really set up to be a math brain. I’m way more of a visual person.

When I got into undergraduate school, I was like okay, so I can double major in fine art and physics. This totally makes sense, it’s all about how material works, and how the physical world works. This is a natural pairing. They thought I was totally crazy. It was not part of the curriculum at all. There was no apparent overlap. I’ve kind of been an artist and creative person and maker who just does an intense amount of research on the side. I try to keep up with science news. If I see something like an optical illusion or something I don’t understand, I try to find the scientific research behind why it works. That’s been really great in opening these inroads to new projects that I wouldn’t have otherwise thought of.

I definitely try not to lose track of the plot on that stuff, because I feel like it’s really important. It’s really always been a part of who I am.

Dan: Wow. Super inspiring actually. So cool. Before we go, I wonder if you can share what’s next for you. What are you working on these days?

Kelli: Since Trump was elected, I’ve been trying to make myself useful to the activist’s groups and America as much as possible. I’m working on some things for the tax march and the science march. That’s really good because it keeps me connected to the world. I feel like I just can’t sit here and draw pretty little icons. It drives me crazy. That makes me feel good, like I’m doing something, but also calling my representatives too, which is probably more important.

Also, my first big mass produced book is coming out in September. It’s called This Book is a Planetarium. It’s been a long time coming. I started working on it before the camera book, but just like the complications of working with a big publisher; it just got delayed. It’s coming out in September. It’s really pretty cool, because it’s not just a planetarium. There’s an instrument in there. There’s a perpetual calendar. There’s a Spirograph. There’s all kinds of fun functional things. All of them are very colorful and designy but also provide a complete explanation of why it works.

What I’m hoping is it will be an inroad to science, math, and a lot of these physical world concepts for people who understand the world visually or tactilely, like artists and designers. I’m hoping people will be able to use that book to get ideas for their own projects, and have a better understanding of how the world works. That’s coming out in September.

Dan: It’s coming out in September with a big publisher. People will be able to buy it.

Kelli: You can buy it right now. It’s on Amazon.

Dan: You can pre-order it. Excellent.

Kelli: But it’s been there for two years, so I feel weird. Every once in awhile, people email me and are like hey, what’s up with that book. I have a very limited control. When I self-publish something, you can be mad at me. In this case, call my publisher. Send the hate mail there.

Dan: It also sounds like a massive project. It’s like all the things we just talked about times ten in one book.

Kelli: It’s funny because I had made all the prototypes for the book, did the design, and did all the research. I was like this is a monumental effort. I can’t believe I did this, like pat myself on the back and walk away. That was the end of 2014. If you’re planning on mass producing a project, it’s amazing because this book I worked on is going to be at Walmart in the middle of Missouri. Kids I would never have access to will see this. I’ll be able to corrupt their minds.

On the other hand, it’s kind of like I’ve done the same project 20 times in a row, because it’ll come back from the manufacturer and it’ll be a little bit off. Naturally as a perfectionist and a person who wants to make products that do what I say they’re doing; I have to figure out exactly what is different between what I sent and what they sent back.

I had to remake this project like 20 times. I think it’s really good that I’m a stubborn person because otherwise I think I would have walked away a year ago.

Dan: And just quit.

Kelli: Yeah.

Dan: I’m glad you stuck with it. I’m sure it’s going to be amazing.

Kelli: Thanks.

Dan: Based on everything else we’ve seen from you.

Kelli: It’s a five-page book. There’s a limit to how amazing it can be. But it’s funny. Every once in awhile, I talk to my mom and she’s like “What are you working on?” I’m like “Still working on my five-page book.”

Dan: It’s not about page count.

Kelli: Right. It’s a book that turns into a planetarium. Whatever.

Dan: Exactly. This is amazing. Thanks so much for joining us today. That was really, really fun.

Kelli: Thanks for having me.

Dan: We’re going to look for the book when it comes out, and keep an eye on what you’re uploading. They can find you at kellianderson.com.

Kelli: Yes. That’s another big project I’m working on. I’m remaking my website. It will be like a modern website within the next couple of months. I’m excited. Finally, I’ll be a modern human again. It’s awesome.

Dan: Yeah! There’s like two sneak peeks we’ve heard: the book and new website.

Kelli: Yeah.

Dan: Keep an eye out for Kelly. Thanks again. It was so fun.

Kelli: Thanks for having me. This legitimately fun.

Dan: Thanks. Take care.

Kelli: Bye.