Episode 12

Episode 10: Fraser Davidson

In episode 10 of Overtime, Dan chats with Fraser Davidson—an award-winning motion graphic designer and animator and one of the founding members of Cub Studio. Cub Studio has worked with big name clients like ESPN, the NFL, BBC, and more. Fraser and Dan discuss the recent resurgence of the GIF, Fraser’s creative process and how he started Cub Studio, and a behind-the-scenes look at a few of Fraser’s recent motion graphics.

This episode of Overtime is brought to you by SiteGround. SiteGround offers web hosting crafted for the creative community. Whether you’re using a custom solution or a popular open-source software like WordPress, SiteGround has plenty of hosting options that your website can grow into. Overtime listeners get 50% off at siteground.com/dribbble.

Fraser Davidson Designer, Director & Animator. Founding Partner of Cub Studio.

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Transcript

Dan: Hey there, everybody. Welcome to Overtime. This is Dribbble’s official podcast that goes behind the scenes of your favorite shots and designers. This is Episode 10, which is pretty awesome. We’ve gotten 10 episodes under our belt here. Today we’re talking with Fraser Davidson, and Fraser is a designer, director, and animator, and he’s the founding partner of Cub Studio in London. Today we’re going to talk with him about working with large sports clients and his path into getting into motion design, and how he helped revolutionize the GIF on Dribbble. It’s a really fun chat, and I hope you enjoy it.

Today’s episode is brought to you by SiteGround. SiteGround offers web hosting crafted specifically for the creative community. What’s cool is they believe in keeping the web open and independent, give you more freedom to get crafty with your design, own your website content, and move freely between platforms, which is all really good stuff. Whether you’re using a custom solution or a popular open source software like WordPress, SiteGround has plenty of hosting options that your website can grow into. Get this: Dribbble members get 50% off at SiteGround.com/Dribbble, so big, big thank you to SiteGround for sponsoring this episode.

Now, let’s move onto our chat with Fraser Davidson. Welcome to Overtime, Fraser Davidson.

Fraser: Thank you very much.

Dan: It’s great to have you on here. You’ve been on Dribbble for quite a while, really popular player with very distinct styles. There’s a lot to talk about, which I’m excited about. There’s a lot of stuff we can cover – your building of Cub Studio and all that.

I selected a few shots to talk about to guide our conversation. The first one is called “6 Nations Rugby”. This is a pretty recent one, from last month. This is a part of a series, and a lot of stuff you do is for clients and there’s a theme that happens over the course of several shots. This one is one of those. I was blown away by several things – not only the motion but also the style and texture you have in this shot. Also like all of your motion shots, the loop is always really creative. We use GIFs on Dribbble to show motion, which we can get into the pros and cons there, but I wonder if the loop for here – was that for Dribbble or is it part of the thing you’re delivering to the client?

Fraser: With almost everything we do we’ll put up scenes taken from a piece. In the project file, there’s always a collection of compositions called “Dribbble 1, Dribbble 2, Dribbble 3”. We generally work in 16:9 and Dribbble is all 4:3, so we shave the edges off it. Then we can effect some kind of loop because obviously in GIFs the loop is all-important.

The “6 Nations Rugby” piece is part of an animation we wanted to create, something new. We do a lot of sport stuff. We work with a lot of sporting institutions, like the NFL, Rugby Union, ESPN and ice hockey. A lot of the stuff we’re been doing recently has been quite cartoonish. We wanted to make something that was different substantively.

Texture wise, it’s supposed to have that feel of like the old-fashioned 1930s – I forget his name – Otis Shepard? He’s a baseball guy but it’s that kind of very few colors, harsh shadows. We wanted to give it a feel of an oil painting. There’s a great quote by a British comedian, Spike Milligan, who talks about rugby; the way a game develops is like painting on a canvas. We took that metaphor.

Dan: That’s amazing. There’s so much behind this. We could go on for a couple of hours there about what you said about the shot. First of all, the loop itself, there’s an artform to creating endless loops that look natural, and you fit it in the shot format and everything. That’s really cool to hear you’re doing that specifically for Dribbble.

I want to say your early motion work using GIFs on Dribbble sort of influenced an entire industry of people that are creating motion loops. Honestly, I think you’ve done that. Have you noticed a movement – no pun intended?

Fraser: Yeah. I think I joined in 2010. I can’t remember if you initially did animated GIFs or supported them. I can’t remember at what point.

Dan: I don’t think we did initially mainly because of the cropping and having them play automatically was maybe annoying for some people. We eventually settled on where we are now, where we freeze it, and you can hover over it to start it, which I think is a nice compromise. I don’t think we supported it back when you first joined.

Fraser: It’s quite an archaic format. I think you guys have done a lot for the resurrection of the animated GIF. Unfortunately, you can’t use them as avatars on Twitter anymore. There was a point at which you could have animated avatars. It’s sort of found a home again on places like Dribbble. It’s good to see the return of the animated GIF.

Dan: I love that it’s a thing. Obviously then there’s the memes out there. That’s a whole other genre of GIFs. Another thing we should clear up. I say [gif] and you say?

Fraser: I say [gif] as well.

Dan: Yes! All right.

Fraser: It’s too late to change that stuff. There’s a detergent company in the U.K. Now it’s called CIF and it was JIF and they changed it because Europeans pronounced it with a soft J. I refuse to acquiesce to that kind of draconian use of –

Dan: You’re right. It’s too late. I’m going to take a guess and say the [giff’-ers] are outnumbering the [jiff’-ers].

Fraser: I think so. It sounds like somebody in French class who does the accent just a bit too enthusiastically. It sounds unnatural and a bit try hard.

Dan: I know what you mean. People that go to a restaurant and quickly dip into the accent.

Fraser: Yeah, just for particular words.

Dan: Exactly. [ha-lah-pain’-yo]. Nachos please. I totally agree. I’m glad we’re on the same page with the pronunciation of GIF since we’re going to be talking about them. It is a strange format. I’m not a creator of GIFs, but I am a designer and I love constraints. I guess the low-fi-ness of the GIF is interesting and probably frustrating at the same time for people like you guys who are creating actual motion stuff, not just for the web but for other applications too.

Fraser: It’s strange that there’s not really been anything to supersede the functionality of the GIF. There are very funny things people have bolted onto it as well. Now there are ways by which you can have very poor-quality alpha channels in them, but nobody’s gone let’s just make a version of this that works. Let’s have an image file that uses an MP4 or something that has good compression. The way it dithers colors works with certain tones. You can see on the 6 Nations shot most of the colors look okay until you see the red socks and the flag. In its palette of 256 colors, and that red sit perfectly between two completely unrelated – a very dark red and very light red. It does that weird kind of spotty effect thing.

Dan: Sort of pixelated, which now that you’ve mentioned it, I’m looking at it and thinking it’s pretty cool the way it’s doing that. It’s moving too, so the spottiness isn’t static. It’s moving. I hear you. There’s definitely a lot of limitations with GIF. You’re right. I don’t know if motion SVG is a thing or not. I’m sure some of the listeners would know.

Fraser: I’m sure they exist. It’s that there’s no common settling on that kind of thing. Realistically, you want something that’s kind of for a lot of stuff. Things like this and motion SVG wouldn’t work. You’ve got rasterized images and things like that. It seems strange the GIF is still the best means of doing that.

Dan: It really is. You’re right about compression too. It’s interesting. The GIF, because of its limitation and its portability, I think that’s probably why it’s still used, even with its limitations. I love – and many people on Dribbble love what you all are uploading. You’re sharing your larger motion work within the confines of our Dribbble arena. It works really well.

I’m wondering – and this leads me to the next shot I was going to talk about, which is the “NFL Christmas Card” from January 3rd. This is recent work too. This blew me away. There’s a couple of shots you’ve uploaded in this style. This is work for the NFL which is amazing, and it’s like a Christmas sweater texture and movement but with motion happening on top of it. I’m blown away because how on earth did you create this. I’m wondering if you could share any of that.

Fraser: With hindsight it turns out there are a number of readily available templates that you can buy and download. At the time, we kind of made this. We sort of built this from scratch because we weren’t using the correct search terms for it. It’s a kind of knitted effect for a screen.

It turns – he might have a shot on Dribbble. I forget who it is exactly, but he’s created a template for this called “Ugly Christmas Sweater” or something like that, that does exactly the same thing and possibly slightly better.

It’s a standard image. You can stick anything through this filter and it will make it look Christmas sweaterish. What it does is down-reses the file quite significantly to about 480 pixels wide. Then it keys it back through – you know how you get the texture of knitted wool. It’s made up of lots of little V’s, so it keys it back through that. Then we’ve added some wool texture over the top and some ripple effects to it feels like it’s material. Then graded it up, but it’s quite effective.

Personally, this was the NFL Christmas card that we created for them. It might to out to their partners and things. I personally wouldn’t have had – I the Jets piece works best. I think all the camera movements served to somewhat undo some of the sweater effect. You sort of lose that when the camera is moving around on screens, kind of moving at once.

But it works well with still camera with snow effect, that kind of thing.

Dan: It does, and there are a couple of shots in this style. The snowflake one is pretty amazing. It basically looks like an ugly Christmas sweater that’s alive in kind of a nightmare way.

Fraser: We shared all them as we were building it, so by the time you built it, it’s like this – you know that it’s already been done. But also you get good feedback on how close in you can get in terms of the camera. If you see the snowflake shot, you get a better sense of the wool on that one than the logos. But it’s that difficult balance between some sort of resolution and being able to show the effects.

Dan: It’s super cool. I’m blown away by that. This is work for the NFL. How did you get into working with sports organizations, and the sports organizations in most cases?

Fraser: I think the NFL has been our biggest client for a while. I think it must have been 2012 I created a love letter to American football called “A Guide to American Football for Liberals, Ladies, and Limeys,” sort of tongue and cheek subtitled people still write me about.

Dan: I remember this.

Fraser: I think I shared some of the initial work in progress of characters and stuff on Dribbble. I made that piece just to put out into the world. It ended up being shown by a national broadcaster. Did quite well on Vimeo and things, and got staff picked. Then it got picked up by a national broadcaster, people who show the Super Bowl over here. I think it might have been Channel 4 at the time rather than the BBC.

They wanted to use it. There are certain lines in it that aren’t on brand for the NFL. I think the NFL were kind enough to let them show it anyway. A couple of days after they showed it, we were sort of summoned to the NFL London office. They said, “We’ve seen your video. Whilst we appreciate your enthusiasm, we’re not going to show that again.” They wanted us to make a proper branded version for them.

We work with their international outreach team, trying to explain various facets of the game through animated content. They wanted to create initially a guide to football in 90 seconds, and secondarily a guide to the league. The way your sports league function tends to differ and be more complex than the way ours do. At the premiership, they will have 20 football teams. They’ll each play twice and then the team with the most points wins. Whereas, you have wildcard rounds and divisional playoffs. The idea of divisions is quite alien to most sports. So trying to explain those interesting little quirks.

We’ve been working with them since and have developed a series of animations about individual teams, the history of each team. There’s a number of glossary pieces, so explaining what a linebacker is or what a Hail Mary pass is, that kind of thing. If you follow our team account you can see the guys who work with us, Pablos and Alex, you can see on their accounts a lot of the animation they do for those videos. There’s lots of player animation, bits and pieces like that. We’ve been working for them a couple of years now. That came from that “Guide to American Football” piece.

Dan: That’s what’s great. That’s something you created because you wanted to create it. Then that was seen by the right people and now they’re a huge client of yours. I think that’s an awesome story. Is there American football in the U.K.?

Fraser: To a very minor degree. I played a bit at university. It does exist beyond that but it’s not much higher in quality. It doesn’t compare in any degree to any college football in the U.S. Effectively it’s beer team grade football.

Dan: Intramural they call it, or whatever. So rugby is obviously huge. Soccer or “football” is big as well. You’ve worked with some of those organizations too, right?

Fraser: We do a bit of work with the Rugby Union in England, and I’ve worked previously with the Welsh Rugby Union in the past. We worked with UA a while ago. We’re discussing projects with some other European leagues. It tends to be we’re kind of doing very similar things for other sports and leagues, off the back of the NFL work we’ve produced.

Dan: I take it you’re a sports fan.

Fraser: Yes.

Dan: That’s must be really fun, to be able to make this stuff, if you’re a sports fan.

Fraser: Absolutely. It’s sort of a dream come true. You work with these institutions and to be given the opportunity to present them. Like I said, the piece I made, the “Guide to Football” is really me trying to sell it to people who may only be exposed to the Super Bowl once a year. Watch 10 minutes of it and go well, this is very slow, and everybody keeps stopping. I try to explain – so much of American football is jargony. What does third-and-two mean? That’s quite simple, and once people have the idea and the basic principle, I think it’s much easier to watch.

Dan: Then it catches on. Maybe you’ve done this; I feel like there needs to be a cricket for Americans version.

Fraser: You’re in luck.

Dan: Really? No way.

Fraser: On out site, we did a piece “A Guide to Cricket for Americans”.

Dan: Honestly, I didn’t know that. That’s like really hard to explain. Right?

Fraser: If you type “cricket” into Dribbble, everything but one of those – about ten of the top-two rows are our cricket guide.

Dan: This was for ESPN?

Fraser: Yeah. They had the broadcast rights to the Cricket World Cup, which I think at the time might have been in India. We sort of like to explain that thing in initially cultural terms. Cricket is a game that was invented by English people. You break for tea. It lasts all day – can last six days and then you draw. As opposed to the American football piece where we say American football is essentially a game of taking other peoples’ land by force. It’s perfect cultural fit.

Dan: That’s a great way to explain it. I’m looking at this shot where it’s the mighty two-by-four and the baseball bat as a comparison, which is great. The mighty two-by-four is the cricket bat, I take it.

Fraser: It’s sort of flat, and a bit wider. The premise of the piece is that if you enjoy baseball, if you enjoy sitting around watching a very slow game, you’re going to really love cricket.

Dan: Of course. Baseball came out of rounders, which was – maybe this is correct, but a dumbed-down version of cricket for people.

Fraser: I’m not quite sure actually.

Dan: I might be wrong.

Fraser: It might be that’s the case. It might be baseball is primary to some extent. There’s French cricket which is quite similar to baseball. I don’t know what’s what.

Dan: So you got to work with ESPN on this stuff. Again, maybe borne out of that football piece you did.

Fraser: Yeah.

Dan: You do a lot of branding work too, which is super great. I assume that’s also related to stuff you produced before. Could you tell us about the birth of Cub Studio and how that’s working today?

Fraser: To go back to your first point, I used to work as a freelancer, once I left a company called Mainframe who did VFX and motion graphics and slightly more advertising-oriented animation. For a while, I worked with the likes of Nike doing branding for collegiate athletic programs. You’re in Connecticut, right?

Dan: I’m in Salem, Massachusetts, not far at all.

Fraser: We worked with Nike on the Yukon Huskies logo, things like that. I worked on projects like that. When we started Cub, I started it with Ben, my friend from home. We’ve known each other for 20-odd years now. He worked in online marketing at the time, and I needed somebody who could managing direct the business while I did more of the creative-end stuff. That’s how we came to work together, and it’s been three years now. In the office, we’ve got at times up to eight people. We’ve got a sound guy who works remotely in New Zealand, and a few freelancers. It’s just grown from the two of us in a shipping container.

Dan: Really?

Fraser: Yeah.

Dan: On a ship?

Fraser: No. Unfortunately, London is fairly strapped for space, so we’ve sort of taken to starting to put offices inside shipping containers by East End canals. Our first employee was Lynn Fritz, who interestingly enough we met through Dribbble.

Dan: Very familiar with her work. She’s great.

Fraser: We kind of took her on through messaging her over Dribbble. She subsequently moved to Australia, and we’ve got another couple of guys who’ve come on as junior animators since then.

Dan: That’s amazing. It’s so cool to see the growth happen over the years. Shift gears a bit here. The third shot I chose to talk about was “Skillshare” month of learning shot about a year ago. There’s a couple of reasons I chose this. It’s got three hilariously drawn characters and looping in a walk. I think there’s a term for this.

Fraser: They’re a walk cycle.

Dan: This was to advertise your class you were teaching at Skillshare on “Simple Character Animation,” which is really cool. I just wonder if you could tell us about that, the inspiration for wanting to teach the class, and how it went. After this came out, on my own Dribbble feed I know suddenly I’m seeing walk cycles everywhere, which is great. It’s kind of another one of those things where it’s like Fraser has started this revolution of GIFs.

Fraser: Spamming your site.

Dan: Honestly, for a long time we were like GIFs are causing us grief, and then we finally put some effort into supporting them. I’m glad we did because it really adds a lot to that. I was wondering if you could tell us about the class and how it went.

Fraser: I was approached by the guys at Skillshare to create something about AfterEffects Teach people to make a GIF. I think probably off the back of you guys supporting GIFs, becoming a greater prevalence in the design community. And I thought about it for a while. I sort of wasn’t especially keen at first because After Effects is such a beast to learn. It’s very difficult after 12 years of using it to look objectively and say this is a good place to start.

Really, my thought was what’s a staple of animation that I can help people to achieve in as straightforward a way as possible. It’s very simplistic and very limited but if you do the course you should be able to learn to create something like a walk cycle very simply. Ben, my business partner, who’s not familiar with Adobe software much at all has taken the course and managed to create a half-decent walk cycle. It’s fairly straightforward.

After this one, I created another couple of courses. One was lip syncing, which was having a character speak dialogue, so the fundamentals and how you can quickly create animated mouth shapes. It’s another one of those things that’s a staple of animation. We’ve created a very simple way to do that, that’s relatively still effective.

Dan: It’s amazing. As a beginning, anybody that didn’t have motion experience, they could probably take your first class there.

Fraser: I think so.

Dan: I need to take this. This is a good segue to what you use to create your work. I think that would be a question that a lot of folks would ask you if given the opportunity. I’m wondering the process for you creating stuff.

Fraser: Almost everything we do is Illustrator into After Effects. The company I used to work at I would do a lot more 3-D, render-intensive stuff, a lot of compositing and things like that, which if I’m totally honest I didn’t really enjoy that much. The reason for leaving and doing what I do that’s much more character based, simpler, and in general more narrative-led and fun was to get away from that kind of thing. What we do is very simple. The technological aspect is about as straightforward as you can get in A. Hopefully what we give to it is experience.

Dan: That comes through. There’s a definite sense of fun with all your work, and I think that’s probably what resonates with a lot of people. Do you think that simple style you chose to go down helped you in terms of getting clients that also wanted that style?

Fraser: Possibly, and I think doing what you do you probably see these trends sweep across Dribbble from time to time. It’s been around for a while now, but that kind of sort of slightly cutesy vectory thing is extremely popular in the way it’s used for onboarding, UX, and all this kind of stuff. I think that’ll probably be around for a ways longer. I can’t see it going anywhere. We sort of happened to fall into doing that kind of stuff because our style was aligned that way anyway.

Dan: That makes sense. I love watching the trends. We get a little flack for that, that we’re encouraging – I think it’s more we’re reporting what’s happening, but I think it’s fun to watch that go back and forth. How did you get your start, what’s your history? I’m sure you weren’t always a motion designer your whole life, but I’m wondering what the path was to get there.

Fraser: From the age of 16 in this country you do what I call A levels, so between 16 and 18 you do a very limited set of subjects. You tend to only do three. I think they’re changing that now, but you specialize quite early. I was interested in design and art basically. I wanted initially to go to art college in Edinburgh but I didn’t get in, which was fortuitous with hindsight. I ended up doing graphic design for three years at a university in Nottingham, England. It was purely fortuitous that I ended up stumbling into a course the school ran. It was an introductory session to AfterEffects.

I started using it and was very quickly taken with animation as a means to express – fulfill some of the briefs that we were sent. I kind of spent the remaining two years of that course working on my own. There were a couple of other people in our course that did similar. By the time I finished I had a small showreel that was just about good enough to get a job at a company, Mainframe, that I stayed with for six years. I was very lucky to be around a group of people who’ve subsequently gone on to do brilliant things. Mike from ManvsMachine who I’m sure there are designers out there who know ManvsMachine’s work. Found Collective who are now owned by – they do a lot of music videos and incredible projection mapping stuff. And Analog Studio, who went on to do some of the Apple launch videos and that kind of stuff. The people I was with who were my contemporaries or my bosses were extremely talented and gave me real education just by proxy.

I did a lot of different stuff at Mainframe and kind of found I really enjoyed doing the kind of animation we do now, by producing fun things in my spare time for various causes and to fulfill various whims. Eventually started being asked to do those for clients. At a point I decided I wanted to do freelance, jumped in, and that was relatively successful. I sort of tricked two people I used to work with into leaving as well, and sort of starting to do similar. We all worked together in a tiny room before I started Cub.

Dan: A tiny room smaller than a shipping container though?

Fraser: It was probably exactly the same size as a shipping container. It wasn’t quite as nice.

Dan: I have to admit there’s something really cool about thinking about a shipping container becoming an office.

Fraser: They stacked them three high. It’s quite something to see, but it’s absolutely freezing in winter and quite hot in summer. Although you get a good draft because it opens at both ends.

Dan: There’s pros and cons. While we’ve been talking, your walk cycle GIF has been up in front of me, and I’ve been staring at it. I’m realizing they’ve been walking for a year.

Fraser: I wonder how much ground you could cover?

Dan: Maybe this is strange, but sometimes I think about the GIFs that are moving that no one is looking at, at the time. They’re always looped and going. You close the window but they’re still going somewhere. It’s kind of weird.

Fraser: It’s like the fridge light, or some kind of Schrodinger’s GIF. If nobody is watching the GIF, is it still moving? Is it simultaneously moving and not moving?

Dan: Is it moving if no one is looking at the file? It’s kind of funny.

Fraser: That’s quite a nice idea for an animation. Having people turn away from the screen and having the GIFs stop doing what they’re doing. Absolutely knackered from walking for six years straight.

Dan: I could see the cowboy I’m looking at – turn away, he stops and puts his head down like he’s sweating, and then he pops back up. It’s kind of like Toy Story, where they have to freeze when people watch them, so the opposite of Toy Story actually.

Fraser: Demented universe where they’re forced to carry on walking.

Dan: This could be a whole movie actually. I think Cub Studios is the right people to take it and produce it. What’s next for you and Cub Studio? Working on anything interesting you can share? Or maybe it’s all top secret.

Fraser: I can share a bit. We post the teasers to what we’re doing at the moment. We’ve been speaking to a few people about producing some animation that’s more procedurally generated, or statistically generated from data, experimenting with that. There’s interesting people doing things at the moment.

We’re trying to look at ways to offer that to some of our clients.

We have an idea today about something we might be making, some promo material we’re going to make in the not-too-distant future using some animation we’ve put up today. I put up a shot today of – I guess she’s technically my niece, singing a nursery rhyme. You can click through to the Instagram link where you can hear her singing as well. We want to do some character testing, so we’ve created an animation of my girlfriend’s niece Heidi, who is singing tremendously enthusiastically but with limited accuracy the nursery rhyme “The Grand Old Duke of York”.

Dan: So it’s actually her audio and you’ve animated against that?

Fraser: That’s right.

Dan: I have to click over to Instagram. That’s super cool. The visual alone is adorable.

Fraser: We’re working with a few different tools and things to see how we can speed up the character animation process a bit to be able to turn those things around a bit faster and be able to work on different projects.

We’ve been working with ESPN recently. They have a morning show called First Take. If you scroll further down our feed prior to the “NFL Christmas Card” stuff, there’s some character tests of Steven A. Smith and Max Kellerman. Some of the characters we’ve created for those jobs, and they’ve allowed us to – some of the tools that people in the animation community have been building have allowed us to quickly develop and animate characters that are quite sophisticated relative to some of the things we used to do.

Dan: I’m looking at them now. Yeah, Steven A. Smith – you even have Tom Brady in there. Awesome.

Fraser: That’s Max Kellerman but he looks like Tom Brady.

Dan: Okay, I’m sorry.

Fraser: Unfeasibly good looking.

Dan: Definitely. That’s cool, so in the GIF you demonstrate the movement of each component of the face. You could automate that or have it animate to prerecorded audio?

Fraser: Yeah. We’re still at the point where we’re animating the mouth and everything, but that project came off the back of our “Trump Facts” series, where if you scroll down further you can see our Donald Trump character talking, and scowling at the camera.

Dan: I love this.

Fraser: That was borne of wanting to make a character, a very expressive character. We took real-life soundbites of things he said and animated the character to them.

Dan: I love it. Are those fake GIFs then?

Fraser: Yeah, yeah.

Dan: Terrible joke. Huge, huge GIFs, bigger GIFs than anyone.

Fraser: I’ve got to get into the country on Sunday. I’m flying over. I’m a bit scared they’re not going to let me in if they see any of this.

Dan: That’s true. We can edit that out.

Fraser: Any time after Tuesday.

Dan: Good luck coming in. I hope everything goes well. If you want to wait a few weeks, maybe it’ll be much easier to get in. I don’t know. I’ll let people read into that. Thanks so much, Fraser, for being on here. It was pretty awesome. We could chat for hours about this stuff. Super big fans, and obviously, the community is a big fan of yours.

Fraser: Thank you very much.

Dan: The work is amazing. We can’t wait to see what you do next. Thanks again for being with us.

Fraser: Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.